Editor's note: On publication of Part I of this interview with Paul Smedegaard of Racine, Wisconsin, he and two of the more renowned Baker Street Irregulars took issue with details of BSI history. Jon Lellenberg is the official historian of theBSI. Dorothy Stix is wife of the fourth head of the BSI, Tom Stix.

Jon L. Lellenberg wrote: Thanks for sending me the new issue [of the 3PP Plugs & Dottles]. I enjoyed reading Paul's interview, and God knows it's nice to hear one's own books mentioned so much. I do need to correct one point, though, about Lenore Glen Offord getting an investiture in the BSI from Edgar W. Smith.

When I was first involved with the BSI in the 1970s, the policy was no women at the dinner or as members. When you later discovered that there was a woman in San Francisco with an investiture, you were told the story that Paul related, and I'll bet he heard it the same way I did, if not from the same person, because a lot of people told it. (Herb Tinning, for one.) The story went the way Paul relates it (except that it was Anthony Boucher running The Scowrers & Molly Maguires at the time, not Dean Dickensheet). Who deserves an investiture, Tony? Glen Offord does, Edgar. (Or, in some versions, Lee Offord.) And when Edgar W. Smith arrives, to his astonishment, it turns out to be a woman. But he's a good sport about it.

But here's the truth. Smith knew that he was giving it to a woman. He arrived with a certificate of investiture for Lenore Glen Offord as "The Old Russian Woman." (She lived on Russian Hill.) And he was already acquainted with her personally from previous trips to San Francisco and meetings with the Scowrers and Molly Maguires.

Looking forward to the second half of the interview. - Jon

Dorothy Stix wrote: Thank you so much for sending me your newsletter. I do so enjoy reading the articles.

However, I feel I must respond to a section of your interview with Paul Smedegaard. I've known Paul and Margaret for many years and they are truly wonderful people. Tom and I cherished our friendship with them.

Paul's recollection of the cocktail party is not entirely accurate. During Julian's entire tenure as Commissionaire he and Eleanor sponsored the cocktail party and they chose the people to be invited.

In 1987, Tom's first BSI weekend as Wiggins, the cocktail party was held at 24 Fifth Avenue and was open to all Sherlockians who purchased a ticket. It was no longer a private cocktail party. - I just wanted to clear that up in the record.

I am enjoying life here in Florida and look forward to the symposium next month put on by the Pleasant Places of Florida. I will also have my first Sherlockian houseguests at that time.

Paul Smedegaard called: He said a few parts in Part I could be emended. (already emended by editor)
1) At Chanute Air Base, Smedegaard's father served under Major Curtis Martin (not Major General). Later, he became Brigadier General.

2) When Bob Hahn moved to Sheboygan, Wisconsin, he founded The Merripit House Guests in 1981. It is still active. Ed Christensen of Oshkosh is Hahn's successor.
[Peter Blau's list of BSI scions lists Smedegaard as the contact person for an active scion called C.A.L.A.B.A.S.H. (Convivial Attendant Liaisons Among BSI and Adventuresses of Sherlock Holmes) and for an active scion called The Last Dog Hung Post-Prandial Club, and for an active scion called Randall's Gang.]

3) The spelling of the last name of one of the co-founders of The Criterion Bar Association is Debbie Christmann (not Crispin). She was the wife of Val Christmann. Incidentally, a couple of Margaret Smedegaard's sisters also participated in the Criterion Bar Association (of which Margaret was actually the sparking plug as indicated in her BSI investiture as "Criterion Bar"). In 1973, Margaret received the first Stamford Memorial Award from Cri Bar.

4) Julian moved the BSI cocktail reception to the Grolier Club in 1977 and informally invited people to attend, and after people crashed the party in 1978, it was about 1979 when Stix announced it was a private party of Wolff's strictly limited to those invited. It was not until the move to 24 Fifth Ave. in about 1987 that Stix made it a BSI party for all who bought a ticket.
[When I read to Smedegaard the letter from Dorothy Stix, Paul said he agreed with her "absolutely".]

Later on, in 1989, I was Sir Hugo (president), and with Bob Hahn's help and advice, I think I strengthened and revitalized Hugo's Companions. But I wanted to do something to make the Companions a little more progressive and, also, steal a march on the Baker Street Irregulars. I knew what was afoot with the Irregulars and with Tom Stix about women becoming members. I didn't know the time frame but I knew what Tom's thoughts were on the matter, so I thought it would be an interesting thing if Hugo's admitted women. But I wanted to do this in a constructive manner.

Susan Rice, one of the most knowledgeable and active Sherlockians in the world, had helped Hugo's Companions in the past. At that time she had moved to New York where she is now. I thought if someone could guard the portals of Hugo's Companions against inroads by unqualified women, Susan could. So I said: "Susan, I have an idea. I've been president for a year and I'd like to make you a member of Hugo's Companions. I'll do it under the authority of Sir Hugo. Are you willing?"

She said, "Sure." Before she came out to Chicago, the officers of Hugos met in a smoke-filled room to elect - really pre-elect - the slate of officers. I broached the subject about Susan becoming a member. The vote was pretty well split. The other officers were re-elected, but I wasn't. But, at the actual meeting, I was still Sir Hugo. Susan came out and by the power invested in Sir Hugo, I made Susan a member. And Susan stood for the oral tripos as other new Companion aspirants did. Susan either answered half the questions or whispered the other half of the answers to the questions in the ears of men who were also standing. She was made a Companion by acclamation after the oral tripos.

Then the election was held. I was unelected. The new Hugo came in, and by virtue of his office, he booted Susan out. Sixteen months later, Tom Stix brought into the Baker Street Irregulars the first women who then would fully participate. That happened at the 1991 cocktail party. At the 1991 dinner, the day before, he gave shillings just to men, but at the cocktail party he gave six women unrestricted shillings. Amongst the six was Susan Rice. In 1992, women went to the dinner for the first time.

GS: Tom Stix Jr. was Julian's righthand man but his father seems to have been such an active, involved man that I'd think Stix Sr. would be a more likely choice.
PS: Well, Stix Sr. was older for one thing, and he had other interests like the horse race he started. He started the first Silver Blaze horse race. It was a different set of associations there.

GS: Smith was able to carry the BSI load with the help of his secretaries at General Motors. And, from what I've read in Crises, by 1950-1951 he contributed $12,000. How was Wolff able to to underwrite so many of the BSI activities? Did he have a real good job too?
PS: Wolff was a doctor. Julian Wolff, M.D. His brother Ezra Wolff was also a doctor, a surgeon. [Tom Stix Jr. said in his obituary (BSJ June 1990) that Wolff (1905-1990) retired at age 50, after he "returned from the War to take up industrial medicine, a specialty his father, Meyer, had virtually invented. He was able to retire in 1955, when he had already been an investitured Irregular for a decade, to devote himself to life and the Sherlockan world, if not necessarily in that order. He continued to do so until he withdrew from the Rialto to care for his beloved Eleanor when she became cruelly incapacitated by illness."]

GS: According to Lellenberg's account, by 1950, Chris Morley was already talking and acting old even though he's only 59 going on 60. How old was Wolff in his hey day?
PS: Wolff was 85 when he died in 1990 and Commissionaire from 1960-1986 [aged 55-81].

GS: So when he began carrying the full BSI load at home, including putting out The Baker Street Journal, he was already retired [at age 55] with more time to do stuff like that?
PS: Correct. [Tom Stix's obiturary of Wolff in BSJ concurs.]

GS: What did you mean when you said that Wolff built the BSI house and Stix furnished it?
PS: Edgar Smith got together an elite corps of Sherlockians from around the country and a few from overseas. What Wolff did was keep the BSJ going and help promote Sherlockian activities around the country. Basically, he built up interest amongst the masses rather than a handful.

GS: According to Lellenberg's Crises of the Late 'Forties and the previous volume about the mid-'40s, Morley was getting cranky and didn't want any more annual BSI dinners after the 1947 dinner even though he'd been inviting newcomers and sons of Irregulars to attend. So Smith mollified him by cutting invitations to about 49 people but preserved the status of the scions.
PS: It got away from Morley, and once Edgar Smith got his hooks into it, Edgar ran it however he wanted. It wasn't going to die. Morley gave birth to the BSI but Smith laid the foundations. Wolff not only kept it going, but made it grow. What Stix did was shape it and refine it. Stix said, "There are going to be Sherlockian bottoms on the chairs at the BSI dinner rather than curiosity seekers." He also brought in the women. He started the Watson Fund to help bring Sherlockians to New York who might not otherwise afford to come to the dinner. But starting the Watson Fund and bringing women into the Baker Street Irregulars, wasn't what Tom wanted to be remembered for. This will pass as quickly as Doyle wanting to be known for things other than Sherlock Holmes. But Tom felt his greatest accomplishment was making the Baker Street Irregulars self-sufficient financially. Before him, Julian subsidized the Baker Street Irregulars out of his pocket.

GS: Is it too early to forecast what tack or focus the new Wiggins, Mike Whelan, will take, what fresh tone he is bringing to the Irregulars?
PS: No. Not really, but I wouldn't presume. It would be inappropriate.

GS: Where would you like to see the Sherlockian movement in general go?
PS: I'm seeing something right now that was happening in the late '50s and early '60s, and that is a graying of the BSI. In order for an organization to perpetuate and be strong, qualified youthful ideas need to be encouraged. I'm not saying that you grab youth off the streets, but I am suggesting the various scion societies encourage youthful members as would be proper to perpetuate a BSI that would not be so graying to the extent it is now. I don't presume to suggest who is to be selected. That is solely the province, total right, and function of the leader of the BSI - and should be. I feel there is a pool out there available for a broader, more inclusive selection, especially with regard to age, to enhance your chance for greater strength.

GS: As I look around, the most Irregulars appear to be over 50.
PS: When Mike Whelan, Jon Lellenberg, and I got in, we were youngsters. I like to think of myself as young but in looking at myself or getting up out of this chair, I realize that I'm not as young as I used to be.

GS:But, was he a kind man?
PS: Indeed, he was a kind man. So much so that too many people took advantage of him.

GS: Does his influence still continue in the Hounds he founded in Chicago? Bob Mangler reminisced about Starrett at an Indianapolis symposium about six years ago and made him seem to be "of recent memory."
PS: Oh, sure. Starrett influenced Bob Hahn. Starrett influenced me. He knew more about Sherlock Holmes than Dr. Watson did.

GS: Did that come through when you met him personally as it does in his books?
PS: Absolutely. He enjoyed Holmes and he enjoyed his cigars.

GS: Actually, he was a man of many other literary interests. He was like Morley in that regard, wasn't he?
PS: Absolutely. I might add that for the last six or seven years of his life, Starrett had a good friend and live-in companion in Mike Murphy, who got his shilling later. I got to know Mike Murphy extremely well. He was a real prince of a fellow. Through him I learned a lot of Starrett's stories - many of which have never been published. Most of the time, Mike and I were tipping a few. Mike wouldn't tell too much on a day-to-day basis, but when when Mike was mellow he would give insights into Starrett that you wouldn't otherwise have.

GS: What kinds of insights?
PS: For example, he told a story about when Starrett and Rathbone were in Ames, Iowa. It was the morning after speaking at Iowa State University. Starrett had a car. They went out looking for some place to eat breakfast, but didn't find one. So Rathbone tells Starrett, "I know where we can get something. Pick a direction." Starrett points, and they start driving. Rathbone says, "Pick a house." Starrett points a house. Rathbone went up to the door, knocked on the door, and the lady of the house answered. Rathbone said, "I am Sherlock Holmes, and we've come for breakfast." And they did.

GS: Any other stories like that?
PS: Yes. Starrett had never been back to a BSI dinner other than the first one. The year before Rathbone died, Starrett invited Rathbone to a BSI dinner. Many people said that Rathbone hated Holmes because of the type casting. That's true. But Rathbone mellowed and had come to accept and even like Sherlock Holmes. So when Starrett invited him to a BSI dinner, Rathbone accepted. Rathbone said, "I'll do something that's never been done before. There will be a woman at the dinner." Starrett said, "What do you mean?" Rathbone said, "They wouldn't kick out Queen Victoria." Rathbone was going to come as Queen Victoria, and part way through the dinner, Rathbone would shed the Victoria costume and there would be Sherlock Holmes. He'd have a second costume. After a while he'd shed the Sherlock Holmes, and there would be Rathbone. Unfortunately, he died before the dinner.

GS: What work did Mike Murphy do?
PS: He was a writer too. There was no one who knew more about Hemingway than Mike Murphy did. Murphy wrote a major work on Hemingway in 1977 called "Hemingsteen."

GS: I guess Starrett's wife was dead by then.
PS: Yes, Rachel Lattimore, his wife, had died some years before.

GS: But he had this good buddy Mike toward the end.
PS: He sure did.

GS: How did you become a friend of Mike's?
PS: Through Starrett.

GS: Thank you, Paul. It's almost time for the distinguished speakers event at the Williams Club. Shall we go?